My reply to Ed Berlin's critique of my last post on this subject:

> Wow.  I really seem to have hit a sore spot here, and I'm sorry
> for that.

You haven't hit any sore spot Ed; you asked what evidence there was for
my assertion, so I provided supportive statements to show that I didn't
make it up, and that many musicologists who have studied this have
found evidence for a strong connection between Gottschalk and ragtime.
It's also blatantly evident to anyone listening to and comparing the
music.

> My first impression on seeing the quantity of evidence that Larry
> submits was that he has corrected me and I will admit he's right and
> congratulate him.   I have no problem with being found wrong.   Though
> I usually research and write carefully (perhaps less carefully for
> e-mail postings), errors are inevitable.   Usually the errors are of
> little consequence; in a few cases, I cringe when I think of them.
> But in reading what Larry has sent, I'm afraid that he has dis-
> appointed me.

You concede that my evidence proves my case, admit you were in error,
then immediately back away from that and start defending yourself by
trying to belittle me and all the authorities I quoted.

> Starr has certainly produced a marvelous and well documented book.
> (Unfortunately, I can't find my copy at the moment.)  If one is to
> appeal to authority, his word is pretty good.   But I don't see that
> these quotations carry the argument.

Using the same technique, you first praise Gottschalk's biographer,
then go into reverse and try to discredit him.  Is he an authority or
not?  Is his book well documented or not?  Using the terminology of
Logic -- 'appeal to authority' -- may sound convincing to some, but is
used inaccurately.  It means trying to get someone to accept something
solely on the basis of it being asserted by someone who presents
himself as an authority, but Starr doesn't do this, he cites facts to
support his assertions.

> That some people heard Gottschalk's music two generations prior to
> ragtime is not proof that Joplin was familiar with it.  Where would
> you suggest that he heard it?  In Texarkana?  In St. Louis?  When?

I provided evidence that Gottschalk's music was ubiquitous before,
during and after the turn of the century, and that Joplin and other
ragtimers must have been very familiar with this music.  If you want
exact documentation that Joplin heard or played Gottschalk on such and
such a date and in such and such a place, you're right, that can't be
proven, nor is it necessary to, in order to establish the point.

> Nor does the argument follow that Gottschalk was a necessary
> prerequisite for ragtime.  Minstrel shows, being immensely popular
> and frequently including syncopated music, probably did even more
> in preparing the public for ragtime.

I did not make this argument.  I agree there were many influences that
led to ragtime, as is true for any new type of music.

> Starr doesn't offer concrete musical examples to support this
> assertion.  Let's see what he refers to, whether there is really
> a connection, or whether it is simply the use of materials common
> to many composers.

Go listen to the music.

> Yes.  The authors "speculated".  That's not proof of anything.

The speculation was based on a knowledge of the culture at the time
and a study of Joplin's life.  If you want precise proof for every
assertion, you should probably work in a field like mathematics or
chemistry, not musicology.

> Gammond's book has no original research.  It is a rehash of Blesh
> & Janis, with the addition only of subjective opinions.  The above
> statement, absurd in its claims and lack of support, is typical.  As
> an appeal to authority, Gammond's word is particularly weak.
> How strong is the argument that an *unnamed* German teacher *must have*
> introduced Joplin to Gottschalk's works?   Isn't it more likely that a
> German teacher would have introduced Joplin to European music?
> The best candidate for this teacher, by the way, is Julius Weiss.  What
> we know of him, from reports of his other students, is that he stressed
> European classics and opera.

It doesn't matter whether or not Joplin's teacher introduced him to
Gottschalk, because Joplin would have been familiar with it from other
sources, as I've already shown.

> Evidence of availability and sales?  Is the music widely advertised in
> magazines and newspapers?   Do sheet music collectors find Gottschalk
> publications from the period to be commonplace?  What about recordings
> of Gottschalk's music?  This is information that is readily available
> and could be cited as proof.

It's an unassailable fact that Gottschalk's music continued in vogue
well into the 20th century.  I have a bibliography which lists 30
Gottschalk pieces issued on piano rolls between 1900-1929, many of them
recorded multiple times by different brands and roll artists, with a
total of 62 different rolls issued.  Some were recorded for reproducing
piano by big name artists -- Arthur Friedheim, Guiomar Novaes and
others.  Sousa's Band recorded Gottschalk's 'Pasquinade' for Victor
Records on June 7, 1901, and 'The Dying Poet' in 1907.

Frank Laforge played a piano version of the same piece for Victor in
1907, which was listed in the Victor catalog in 1913.  If you need more
evidence of the availability of Gottschalk's music, I suggest you find
your copy of 'Bamboula!,' which provides more documentation of this.

> Perhaps the piano roll collectors in this group can help.   Do you
> find a plentiful supply of rolls of Gottschalk's syncopated music from
> Joplin's formative years (pre-Maple Leaf Rag, of 1899) or even during
> the following decade?    If you do, then that may be support for the
> case that Joplin was familiar with the music.

There wouldn't be any rolls from the years before the Maple Leaf Rag,
because player pianos weren't mass produced until after 1900.  I've
given evidence above that Gottschalk piano rolls were plentiful in the
first decades of this century.

> I thought we were talking about Joplin.  Morton's experience, because
> of his locale and his musical background, make it more likely that he
> was familiar with Gottschalk.  But that doesn't say anything about
> Joplin.

We were talking about ragtime, and how Gottschalk influenced it's
development.

> Many competent ragtimers played classics, and some enjoyed "ragging
> the classics."  We know that Morton was among them, and we know he had
> a version of "Miserere".  Did he play Gottschalk's version?  I don't
> know.  I cannot even claim familiarity with a Gottschalk version of the
> "Miserere."  But if Gottschalk did write out a version, is it synco-
> pated?  If not, why would this arrangement be of any greater influence
> on ragtimers than Verdi's original?

'Miserere du Trovatore, paraphrase de concert,' opus 52 by Gottschalk,
is the piece Morton was referring to.  Maybe the New York Times review
from the 1856 premiere of this piece will give a clue why the ragtimers
were influenced by it:

  '...a grand duet on themes from Il Trovatore,  composed expressly for
   this occasion by Mr. Gottschalk and performed by that gentleman and
   Mr. [Sigismond] Thalberg.  Bravura pieces of this kind do not invite
   criticism ... Mr. Gottschalk's duet is an extraordinary production.
   The audience were electrified with it, and, notwithstanding its
   length and difficulty, demanded an encore.'

> What you offer here could be evidence of Gottschalk's prominence in
> turn-of-the-century America.  What is the source of the quotation?
> Who is this Philadelphian?

This is available in your misplaced copy of Frederick Starr's book,
'Bamboula!.'  The quote is from 'Annals of Music in Philadelphia and
History of the Musical Fund Society,' by Louis C. Madeira and Philip
H.  Goepp, published in 1896.  I expect you'll find some way to dismiss
this, as you do all supporting evidence I offer.

> Did silent films usually specify the music that was to be played?
> I thought that was up to the pianist or organist, but I admit not being
> an expert in silent film music.  However, I  do have a copy of Erno
> Rapee's "Motion Picture Moods for Pianists and Organists" (1924).  This
> is a collection of excerpts that an accompanist could use to fit any
> situation occurring on the screen.  In the 674 pages of music,
> comprising about 300 excerpts, there is not a single one by Gottschalk.
> One finds mostly European Romantic classics, but also American
> favorites such as those of Stephen Foster and George Root, American
> concert music of the period (Arthur Farwell), and even the popular
> Brazilian composer Ernesto Nazareth.   But no Gottschalk.

By 1924, Gottschalk was out of vogue, so it's no surprise that there
are no compositions by him in that book.   I already offered evidence
that Gottschalk pieces were used frequently by silent film
accompanists.

> Even if Gottschalk's "Morte!" and "Dying Poet" were of frequent use
> in the nickelodeons, these are not syncopated compositions.  Being
> familiar with these would not be an influence on ragtime.

Ed, your ship is already sinking; there's no need for me to comment on
this absurdity.

> I fail to see how this supports your argument.

Better get someone else to explain it to you Ed; I've done the
best I can.

> If Gottschalk's music was such a great presence during the period, it
> should not be difficult to find evidence of this.  If the evidence is
> lacking, we are justified in questioning assertions of his influence
> on ragtime in general, and on Joplin in particular

How much evidence remains today of how common player-pianos were in
America 70 to 90 years ago?  Only a tiny percentage of people alive
today have ever seen one, and most people don't even know they existed.
While the pervasiveness of Gottschalk's music back then is not readily
apparent at this late date in history, I've given an abundance of
'scholarly' evidence to show how well- known Gottschalk's music was in
turn-of-the-century America, and for the undeniable link between his
music and ragtime.  Anyone with the slightest bit of musical
sensitivity, on listening to them has to be convinced of this
connection.

I don't claim that Gottschalk was the 'father of ragtime.'  Gottschalk
didn't invent syncopation, and he drew on rhythmic, harmonic and
melodic idioms of Afro-Caribbean music.  He refined and transformed
these, just as the next generation of composers found elements of
Gottschalk's creations stimulated them to invent their own idiom, in
the form of ragtime.

While we have to recognize that even a composer of genius and
originality can't avoid being influenced by other music he hears,
this doesn't detract from his creativity.  All the great musical
geniuses 'borrow' from other composers, from folk music and other
sources, but this isn't 'copying' because they use these as starting
points, and build on them to create something new and transcendent.
Just as Mozart's astonishing variations on the folk tune of 'Twinkle
Twinkle Little Star' wouldn't be called plagiarism by any rational
person, the ragtimers' use of Gottschalkian elements is a brilliant
transformation of music that was expressive of the 19th century into
one that speaks to the 20th century.

Larry Lobel
Virtuoso Piano Service
Petaluma, CA