Wow.  I really seem to have hit a sore spot here, and I'm sorry for that.

 [ Larry Lobel writes in MMD 98017 (prefaced by Robbie's recapitulation): ]

>  [ Ed Berlin's opening statement was:
>  [
>  [> Much of what Gottschalk wrote has similarities with ragtime,
>  [> but that is not sufficient evidence to conclude that Gottschalk
>  [> had a direct influence on ragtimers.  What evidence indicates
>  [> "it's almost a certainty"?
>  [
>  [ Larry now continues the thread below.
>
> Ed Berlin is skeptical about my assertion that 'it's almost a
> certainty' that Joplin and the early ragtimers were influenced
> by Gottschalk's music.  I'd like to offer some supporting quotes:


My first impression on seeing the quantity of evidence that Larry
submits was that he has corrected me and I will admit he's right and
congratulate him.  I have no problem with being found wrong.  Though
I usually research and write carefully (perhaps less carefully for
e-mail postings), errors are inevitable.  Usually the errors are of
little consequence; in a few cases, I cringe when I think of them.

But in reading what Larry has sent, I'm afraid that he has dis-
appointed me.

> Frederick Starr writes in "Bamboula!," his exhaustive biography
> of Gottschalk:

Starr has certainly produced a marvelous and well documented book.
(Unfortunately, I can't find my copy at the moment.)  If one is to
appeal to authority, his word is pretty good.  But I don't see that
these quotations carry the argument:

> "Syncopated music and ragtime are often seen as having exploded full-
> blown...before an astonished public in the late 1890s.  However, two
> generations before this, Moreau Gottschalk had prepared the soil as he
> performed his own Caribbean-inspired syncopated works before a thousand
> audiences across Civil War America."

That some people heard Gottschalk's music two generations prior to
ragtime is not proof that Joplin was familiar with it.  Where would
you suggest that he heard it?  In Texarkana?  In St. Louis?  When?

Nor does the argument follow that Gottschalk was a necessary
prerequisite for ragtime.  Minstrel shows, being immensely popular
and frequently including syncopated music, probably did even more
in preparing the public for ragtime.

> "... it is undeniable that many chord progressions, bass lines, and
> even melodic devices employed by ... Gottschalk recur later in Joplin's
> music."

Starr doesn't offer concrete musical examples to support this
assertion.  Let's see what he refers to, whether there is really
a connection, or whether it is simply the use of materials common
to many composers.

> "One biographer of Scott Joplin [Haskins & Benson, 'Scott Joplin']
> speculated that Joplin heard 'the currently popular tunes played in
> syncopated style, most notably those of Louis Moreau Gottschalk.' "

Yes.  The authors "speculated".  That's not proof of anything.

> "Another Joplin biographer [Gammond, 'Scott Joplin and the Ragtime Era']
>  focused on his early study with a German 'professor' in Texarkana,
> Texas.  He argued that this anonymous piano teacher 'no doubt'
> introduced Joplin to Gottschalk's works, and went so far as to suggest
> that...pieces by Gottschalk had exerted a particularly strong influence
> on the composer of the 'Maple Leaf Rag.'

Gammond's book has no original research.  It is a rehash of Blesh
& Janis, with the addition only of subjective opinions.  The above
statement, absurd in its claims and lack of support, is typical.  As
an appeal to authority, Gammond's word is particularly weak.

How strong is the argument that an *unnamed* German teacher *must have*
introduced Joplin to Gottschalk's works?   Isn't it more likely that a
German teacher would have introduced Joplin to European music?

The best candidate for this teacher, by the way, is Julius Weiss.  What
we know of him, from reports of his other students, is that he stressed
European classics and opera.

> "All of the Gottschalk works that contain the most conspicuous proto-
> ragtime elements...were not only in print throughout the period in
> which ragtime composers were growing up, but also selling well.

Evidence of availability and sales?  Is the music widely advertised in
magazines and newspapers?   Do sheet music collectors find Gottschalk
publications from the period to be commonplace?  What about recordings
of Gottschalk's music?  This is information that is readily available
and could be cited as proof.

Perhaps the piano roll collectors in this group can help.   Do you
find a plentiful supply of rolls of Gottschalk's syncopated music from
Joplin's formative years (pre-Maple Leaf Rag, of 1899) or even during
the following decade?    If you do, then that may be support for the
case that Joplin was familiar with the music.

> "No ragtime composer exploited Caribbean and Creole syncopated rhythms
> more thoroughly than Jelly Roll Morton.  Did Morton know Gottschalk's
> pioneering works in this genre?  It is all but certain, since Morton's . . .

I thought we were talking about Joplin.  Morton's experience, because
of his locale and his musical background, make it more likely that he
was familiar with Gottschalk.  But that doesn't say anything about
Joplin.

> black Creole musicians as several Gottschalk contemporaries. ... Morton
> recalled a cutting contest among several of the best ragtime composers
> in which each participant tackled the 'Miserere,' Gottschalk's most
> popular operatic transcription.

Many competent ragtimers played classics, and some enjoyed "ragging
the classics."  We know that Morton was among them, and we know he had
a version of "Miserere".  Did he play Gottschalk's version?  I don't
know.  I cannot even claim familiarity with a Gottschalk version of the
"Miserere."  But if Gottschalk did write out a version, is it synco-
pated?  If not, why would this arrangement be of any greater influence
on ragtimers than Verdi's original?

> "...the public continued to love Gottschalk's music.  Editions of his
> hits rested on the music racks of parlor pianos from coast to coast.
> 'Even today,' wrote a turn-of-the-century Philadelphian, 'it is
> Gottschalk's music .. that still remains supreme among 'fashionable
> pieces.' "

What you offer here could be evidence of Gottschalk's prominence in
turn-of-the-century America.  What is the source of the quotation?  Who
is this Philadelphian?

> Rare was the silent film which did not specify for the pianist to play
> (his) 'Tremolo' at moments of rising emotion, 'The Dying Poet' as hero
> and heroine parted, and 'Morte!!' as the heroine expired."

Did silent films usually specify the music that was to be played?
I thought that was up to the pianist or organist, but I admit not being
an expert in silent film music.  However, I  do have a copy of Erno
Rapee's "Motion Picture Moods for Pianists and Organists" (1924).  This
is a collection of excerpts that an accompanist could use to fit any
situation occurring on the screen.  In the 674 pages of music,
comprising about 300 excerpts, there is not a single one by Gottschalk.
One finds mostly European Romantic classics, but also American
favorites such as those of Stephen Foster and George Root, American
concert music of the period (Arthur Farwell), and even the popular
Brazilian composer Ernesto Nazareth.   But no Gottschalk.

Even if Gottschalk's "Morte!" and "Dying Poet" were of frequent use
in the nickelodeons, these are not syncopated compositions.  Being
familiar with these would not be an influence on ragtime.

> Robert Offergeld, music scholar and writer for Stereo Review magazine:
>
> "The most important of (Gottschalk's) compositions ... are virtuoso piano
> pieces developed from Gottschalk's juvenile recollections of New
> Orleans songs and dances in the Afro-American vernacular, and are
> unquestionably the first so devised.  Their rhythmic vitality, jazz-like
> phrase-forms and exotic coloration...(were) not unnoticed by the
> composing fraternity."

I fail to see how this supports your argument.

If Gottschalk's music was such a great presence during the period, it
should not be difficult to find evidence of this.  If the evidence is
lacking, we are justified in questioning assertions of his influence on
ragtime in general, and on Joplin in particular.

Ed Berlin